Episode 108

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Published on:

7th Aug 2026

EP 108 Devil in the Details

After a solid month on the rodeo road, Kendra and Tommy Joe tackle (and at times wrestle over) everything from whether or not roughstock buck order impacts the outcome to some rodeos shifting away from cowboy-friendly formats, how top-loaded payoffs affect contestants’ bottom lines and more.

Transcript
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you

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or

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Well, hello everybody. I know,

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I know, I know. You think we fell off the face of the earth

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or we don't want to do this anymore.

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But welcome to episode 108.

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We're back, and as you can see,

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we're back old school style. We

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figured out that we're just gonna do our stuff the way we do our stuff

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and hope that you guys like it and keep listening.

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Welcome the first lady of Pro Rodeo Journalism and a real pro on site too,

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by the way. We'll talk about that later.

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Hello, Kendra Santos. How are you today?

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Good morning. I'm doing very well.

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Thank you. And apologies. got some wild hair stuff going here.

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Apologies. Courtesy of the Creston pool,

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but.

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Well, aren't you supposed to put conditioner in after you take a pool jump?

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It's whatever.

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I've got see,

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I'm good for a ponytail. lorry.

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~

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I've got conditioner in mind, can you tell?

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Yeah, yeah. We've

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got conditioner. Well, I'll tell you what,

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what a whirlwind month.

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I don't know about you, but apologize to all of

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our listeners for not getting not giving you guys anything.

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But July is brutal for Kendra and I.

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And so we're just, we're just gonna,

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we've just collected a lot of memories and and stuff over the last month.

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Okay.

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And we figured that in this episode,

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we would just share with you some of our experiences,

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actually.

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what we've noticed, cover a little

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news right here on episode 108.

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And you know what? I do want to say this.

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I'm gonna start topping the show with this.

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Thank God and God bless rodeo fans.

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Okay. Okay.

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You know, we wouldn't all be able to do what we do if

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~

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it wasn't for the rodeo fans, which includes the committees,

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the contractors, the athletes,

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and all of you that are interested in rodeo,

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that buy tickets to rodeo. So God bless all of you.

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Thank you for joining us. Thank you for being,

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thank you for making our world go round and round.

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So Kendra, I'm just gonna let you start.

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~

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You wanna kinda catch everybody up on where you've been and what you've done

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and you can I'll I'll raise my hand or throw in some comments along the

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way and then I'll do the same and we'll go from there.

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How does that sound?

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Fair enough. My last couple weeks,

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I'm actually at home this week,

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but the couple weeks before that,

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I was in Salinas and then Salt Lake City and probably about a

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60 degree temperature swing, I'm guessing,

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since

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Salinas was in the 60s and we all had our life jackets on.

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It was pretty amazing. So.

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Salt Lake was in its hundred and fives.

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Yes, but. Both were awesome.

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I I it's hard for me not to. Just really appreciate the.

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The old school traditions still alive at Salinas and and so.

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You know, the fact that it is the longest scoreline in rodeo,

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the fact that it, you know, it's the only five header we have in our sport

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and the team roping. Those are just really cool things.

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And I, what I know is like in my lifetime,

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~ rodeo committees were when I was a kid,

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mostly, you know, ranchers,

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including that slainess where,

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you know, it was Chet B and Alan Wallace and people like that.

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And, you know, as we go, a lot of those old ranchers,

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you know, have gone on to the great.

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Cowboy reunion in the sky and now there are people from town running some

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of these rodeos. And so when I don't think we should take sometimes very

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costly, literally, ~ tradition holds that go.

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I just, my cowboy friends are greatly appreciative of some of these things.

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know, ~ Selena's,

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know, both Kim and I

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partners come from the left side of the steer.

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When I'm a kid, the bulldozer and the hazer came from both sides of the steer,

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by the way, and they have over time decided to put the hazer over on

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the right side now. having those,

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let them out there and run them down old school.

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~ Yes, things have changed. When I'm a kid,

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it's a much bigger, everybody thinks about the Salinas Arena being massive,

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but it was.

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way, way, way bigger and the grandstands on each end lengthwise of

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the arena weren't there and it was made out of painted green wooden boards

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but ~ some of the really great traditions of having an average and having that long

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score survive and so we're very grateful for that and it makes

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it unique and that's cool.

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Well and I think

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it's a calling card, right? If you're a rodeo like Salinas,

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like Pendleton, and are able to do that,

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and it really separates you from the contestants' point of view,

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even from the the fans point of view.

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~ it's it's unique, it's interesting,

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it's entertaining, and it's great.

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It doesn't mean that it works for everybody,

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but it is hats

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Thanks.

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off and a shout out.

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You know, keep it up. There's a handful of them ~ that are able

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and willing to continue to do this.

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And it kind of, you know, it kind of brings up the conversation.

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It's interesting to me. So I've always advocated when I've

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had conversations with cowboys and athletes that

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~ you know, do you realize that the the the core of this sport,

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you guys enter.

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Okay.

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~

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And pay yourselves. And I've always said,

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you know, the losers pay the winners.

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But you know what I'm starting to realize,

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especially in looking at all of the ~ hullabaloo on Cheyenne,

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and we'll get into Cheyenne, you know,

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about progressive and restricted entries like we do at Salt Lake.

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There's a lot of those cowboys regional and

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That are fine with paying the fees and they're fine with not winning.

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Okay.

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They just want to go play there.

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And there's something to that,

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Kendra, that I never really, you know,

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I'm I was like, you know, it's not fair.

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Okay.

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You know, all of the prize money that the best

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~ Saddlebronk rider wins is 40% the entry fees of all the guys that are barely

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making it in the back of the van.

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I. it.

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But you know, maybe those guys in the back of the band that are barely make

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it are happy to pay that for a chance to win every now and then and just

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get to play with the big boys.

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So I think I have a little bit different perspective on that.

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I still think there ought to be enough money in the sport that you don't have

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to rely on heavy credit card bills because I've heard you say,

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you know, they go into the NFR,

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they're loaded on their credit cards.

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Well, part of that's because they're paying,

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you know, they're paying the top 10.

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mortgage payment on their ranch.

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And maybe that's okay. You know what I'm saying?

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If they want to do that and that's what they want to do,

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God bless them and let them do it.

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I think

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I think 1 of the big lies that that.

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Came forth a number of years ago was the concept

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of limiting entries and that that all committees would ~ who

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did that would more than compensate for the lesser entry fees because those guys

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weren't helping fund the payoff.

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And in.

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In a number of cases that has been a big lie because that has not happened.

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Well,

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that's not a lie. It that's not f yes,

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it's a i i i so I'll give you

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Thanks.

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some personal ~ history. We did everybody can enter at Salt Lake,

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I don't even know how many years ago.

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And we had fourteen hundred or something in Slack.

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And people were tying their horses up on pavement and slipping because they they

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don't realize it's probably not good to get on your

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barrel horse on pay all of these

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Thank

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things just dangerous and when when I went back to look at how much added money

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it would take to get there, that's a challenge because there's a

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lot of donated money. And we put

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but Skippy,

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I'm not coming for you. You're not an example of what I'm talking about.

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I didn't

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Well

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say everybody who limited entries failed to compensate,

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but it has happened a number of times and that is the complaint of the Cowboys,

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fairly enough.

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~ and I ~ you know, I was it was interesting to see.

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I read an article, a well done article,

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that really pointed out in Cheyenne,

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and I don't remember the year,

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but the payoff was bigger when everybody was entering than it is now.

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And again, I'm I'm slightly admitting here that I understand that.

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Now I'm still it it still bugs me that.

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The cowboys are funding the cowboys.

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Now, if they want to do that, and the cowgirls are funding the cowgirls.

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Miguel.

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If they want to do that, that's great.

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~

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~ and so be it. You know, it's there's still now I heard the borders opened.

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~ or you know, that steers are gonna start flooding across the border.

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So our old friend at wherever he was from,

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the ought to Miguel ought to start making money again.

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But the the reality, the reality is,

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and this is a truth, that it is expensive,

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not just in prize money, but it is expensive

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Yeah. Thanks a lot. Thanks.

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to do outs. I don't care if it's a bucking horse,

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a great one. You know, I and the other thing is we pay a lot of money for our stock,

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but you don't draw something you know that you can't win on.

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Now let me qualify that. When our Eliminator pin was out,

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there was a lot of guys that turned out.

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It wasn't because they couldn't win.

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It was because they didn't think they could ride them.

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Sorry, guys. Don't want to hear that.

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Because the guys that got on went to the gold medal round.

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Right? So don't give me that. You just don't want to get bucked off

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Okay. Okay.

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~

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or you don't think you can ride But we've seen you and I have seen calves take

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a hard left and the talented guys get a rope on them and place in the round.

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So just

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You know, don't take that out of the picture too,

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but it just cost a lot of money.

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Back to my initial point, Kendra.

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It cost a lot for every out. And the person that pays that is the committee.

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And that also adds into that equation,

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right? Not just, yeah, the prize money goes bigger.

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And so here's one. I'm going to pitch something out to you.

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Thank Thank you.

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I didn't know we were going to go down this,

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~

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but what about this? Do you think that the contestants,

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if a rodeo were to say we're doing a giant qualifier event?

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And the fees are $1,000. Or I'm not I'm making that up.

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Let's say it cost, let's say it cost $65 for the calf and staff and everything.

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But let's say that you charge the contestants exactly what it cost you.

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Does that make sense? So I took and I said,

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~ there's an event and it costs me for every cowboy X.

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But as long as you guys pay it and it doesn't come out of

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our pocket and consequently out of your prize money or your added money.

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Do you think the contestants would prefer that?

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Well, I guess it depends on the options and it depends on the details.

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If there are a thousand people entered and you're going to take the top one,

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you know, like some of those redemption rounds at various qualifying events,

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~ it just depends on the details of the ground rules,

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right?

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Well, I would take, if I did it,

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I would take a bunch. I would take a bunch.

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Now, the flip side to that argument from a producer's standpoint

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is I want I didn't have him,

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but I want Stetson right, right?

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Correct, at our event. And so do my fans.

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They want to see in Utah Stetson.

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They to see all the blue shirts.

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~ but you know,

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I think that if you had, for instance,

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let's just take our odio for example,

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there's 40.

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Ten around, 40. If you had the top 10,

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you get all the big names. And then the other 30 qualify from an event that just

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But how are you going

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doesn't cost the committee anything.

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to do that

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So they don't have to pull it out of the prize money.

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Does that make sense? You know,

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it doesn't cost them an arm and a leg to do that.

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in the rough stock?

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If it was 30 and 10 for an event,

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do you think that that would be fair?

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Well, the rough you could you could open it up and say everybody that wants

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to enter can. You don't have to,

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because the truth is they're they're not that deep.

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I mean, you saw the bull riding at our I mean,

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the the bull riders are split up.

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We'll talk about that later with the PBR teams.

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The bull bull riders are split up.

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I don't know that you have to do that in Roughstock.

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I would probably just do it in timed events.

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Okay. Okay.

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I'm I'm not saying Salt Lake's gonna do this.

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I'm just asking about a premise.

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So if I were Cheyenne, what if I went

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What if in three months out, I just held a big slack,

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a giant slack that didn't cost us anything,

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but put people into the rodeo.

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And I and I'm not even suggesting this for trying just a rodeo out there,

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right? You know what I'm saying,

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Kendra? Just a rodeo. You have this one big slack,

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and as long as it doesn't cost you a fortune,

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right? You provide the facilities and some staff.

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You know, for our rodeo, if we spent 20 grand to do this or 15 grand.

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That's not gonna kill us. ~ but do you think that the contestants would prefer that?

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Do I think time to vendors would go for that or for for whether it's Salt Lake City

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or Houston or San Antonio do I think they'd show up yes.

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Well

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As long as the terms aren't just ridiculous,

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you know, I think that that yes,

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a shot at that. And I mean, hey,

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your your your gold medal round at the barrel race was a was a pretty fine.

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How do you do right? I'd never heard of Carrie Anne Cross who won your gold medal

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and the number one horse in the world right now.

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Piper was silver. OK, so there is something to be said for,

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you know, every dog has his day.

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That's.

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pray not a very nice way of putting it,

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just, know, to use an old saying,

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it's just, that's why there used to be hundreds and hundreds of entries at Cheyenne.

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That's why Dean Finnerty, you know,

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entered the bulldogging at Cheyenne for whatever it was,

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30 some years or something when he had the chance,

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because every now and again, Cole freaking Pugh on his permit wanted this year.

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Now mind you,

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A whole lot of the top 15 type bulldoggers did not go to Cheyenne this year.

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opted out. But historically, you know,

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in 1983 when this little punk Scott August Berry wins,

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you know, Cheyenne and changes the whole course of his life and,

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Well,

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and and when in seventeen when we did the trial events for the for our rodeo,

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we basically had events all over the country and the PRCA board approved this

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and we seeded people more like Olympics from all over.

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And by the way, that's when everybody heard Wyatt

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.

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Denny's name, right? Like going back.

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Like who's this guy? Look at this goofy little guy with a mustache,

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and he just smoked right? So I think there's I would love that.

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I I think the chance for outsiders to come in,

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figuring out a way, you know, for for and I say outsiders,

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but for, you know, these truly talented people that to get a shot.

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And we, you know, with Days of 47 in the WPRA,

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Thanks.

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we had some barrel racings

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that the the number ones could get in.

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And by the way, that was a fight,

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right? It's it's funny because if you say,

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we're gonna let these people in,

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well, then the top 40 are like,

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no, no, no.

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It's just us. We earned our right to be in the top forty.

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So we should not be held out. Well,

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again, w n no matter what decision you make as a committee,

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you're gonna step on somebody,

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somebody's personal agenda or toes.

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And I don't, you know.

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Well, I think yes,

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I think one of the things that's frustrating from the contestant side

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is when year to year the rules of the game change like this year we're going

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to take you know this many.

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from these standings or if you finish in the top eight or 10 in

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the final world standings, you're automatically gonna get to whatever,

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I don't care if it's the American or Calgary or whatever it is.

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And then if the next year you have different rules then,

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mean, you know, look at people who have had to sit out for injury and

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all of a sudden they're having to requalify all over again,

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which takes, is like a year long process.

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Okay, now you got to try to get in the top 30 or 40 so you can

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get into the buildings. And that is the most irritating ringtone I've ever heard,

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but God bless America. Anyway,

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Sorry about that. I can hear it.

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I can hear it. I meant to turn my phone off,

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~

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but there you have it.

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but so, you know, there's all of this is like,

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Yeah, but it's because

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well, it comes

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down to details.

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it's because we've changed ours.

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You're trying, you're trying to get better

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and you'd adapt things. You know,

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I I love all of these people that are high,

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high critic critical of everything.

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I'll give you an example. You know,

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I was highly critical of the public education system till I got on a school board.

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for almost.

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And when I actually understood what the school

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Thank

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board is dealing with.

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I had some compassion for some of their decisions.

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You know, it it's interesting and it's never going to change.

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That's the way it is. That's the way it is with employees and owners of companies,

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right? The employees say, why don't they just do that?

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They don't, they don't see it from the seat of the owner.

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It's the same thing with in our sport,

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and this is never gonna change.

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It'll always give us something to talk about.

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The committees are tr the committees are all,

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all of them, Kendra.

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Are trying to do what's best for what they're in charge of.

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My my job is to make money so we can give money.

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Okay,

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We're a 501c3. We want to give more money,

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right? And we have five days to do it.

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You know, we would love a month to d to do it.

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We could give a lot more money.

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~ but it it's just I I a little bit of

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are you

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to clarify that are you talking about giving more money to charity?

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Okay,

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Correct. Correct.

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so the one thing that you know,

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that's wonderful and nobody's against that I've written about this

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so many times nobody's against you know

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helping communities that support rodeos,

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helping the youth especially, which you guys are great at.

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That's so awesome. ~ I just,

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as long as people, which you do,

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remember to also give the Cowboys and Cowgirls a raise.

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And to your point about, you know,

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different pulling, wearing different hats in the rodeo industry,

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I just heard a story that was a blast for the September issue of

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the TMRP Journal about

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The rodeo of the PRCA rodeo home of the Navajo PRCA rodeo in Window Rock,

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Arizona. Well There are two women running that rodeo the last three years Jamie

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Arvisa whose son James will be at the NFR for the first time this year

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and Carol Holyon the what I The part that I teed off on that I thought

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was awesome was okay

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Jamie Arvizo's brother, Derek Begay,

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and brother-in-law, Aaron Sinigini,

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world champion, and Eric Rogers,

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world champion, were volunteer labor listers at that rodeo.

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That is so cool to me. Those guys stepped

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Very cool.

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on the other side of fence and learned,

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you know, very eye-opening when you start making decisions based on,

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Absolutely. Absolutely.

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you know, so

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that's why we all need to continue to work together.

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because nobody can have it just their way.

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And we need to like rise.

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What is that about rising tides,

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raise all ship, whatever, know,

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raise all ships, whatever it is,

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but it's like.

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Well, that's so when

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the water goes into the into the cove,

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right? All of the ships that are in it go up.

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Yes.

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Yes, and that's

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where Mary Poppins here tried for decades to get the PBR and the PRCA

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to be friends and enjoy

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Yeah.

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the rise together.

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Yeah, well there you go. It's because everybody thinks they're smarter than

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the other person in everybody's seats.

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And it's because it's because of where you're sitting,

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right? And you know, you're rowing your own boat and the the the river looks like

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it looks for you. Right. And you know,

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and so I don't think it'll change,

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but I think it continued discussions,

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right? If a light goes off in someone's head when they're driving down the road

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Thank you.

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and they're like, Well, that makes sense.

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I'm not gonna get quite as irritated.

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Like that makes sense. It's not good.

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Ask it's not.

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It sucks for me.

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You know, ~ a good example was Tim O'Connell at our rodeo.

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You know, that he had a bad gait on a horse that is not a wreck.

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and the horse hung a foot and he could have got seriously injured.

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Well, I knew Tim, and Tim, I've known him since he's a little boy.

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I knew he was pissed. And he looks over at me and I said,

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after the show. And he waited and we talked.

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And you know, I told him, I said,

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we made a change immediately. And I said,

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you could be, you, you would, I think it would be justified for you to be

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mad at me if we had bad gates all the way along the along,

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Yes.

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~

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but we hadn't. I hadn't seen it yet,

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nor neither had guat any of nobody in my team,

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and we have a really good team there.

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We hadn't seen a problem till then,

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right? And probably had we left everything alone,

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probably wouldn't have had a problem for the rest of the rodeo.

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~ you know, Tim nodded for his horse.

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~ the gentleman on the latch couldn't get it open,

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couldn't get it open, finally got it open,

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right? And then they they slow gated him,

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which is the wrong thing to do.

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But it if you put yourself in the situation of this particular person,

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Okay.

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~

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I don't know that they knew what to do at that particular moment,

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right? You know, sling it, whatever,

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and the wrong decision was made.

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And at the end of the conversation with Tim,

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~ he understood.

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that you know, he understood we were w he was fine,

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right? And and then it turned out he was okay.

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I mean, I was worried that he was seriously injured.

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And it turned out that I mean he was he's n he he was in he was hurt,

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but not injured. I tell my grandkids all the time,

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figure out if you're injured or hurt.

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~ and and and so he, you know.

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Well, OK,

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and you know the two sides to every story situation and and I know your side

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and I also talked at the time before Tim even talked to you at length with

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Tim and what I would say in conclusion,

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a thank God he wasn't seriously injured because it could have been be.

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This is another case where you know people are human.

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I think he had some.

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very fair, valid points. In summary for me,

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knowing in pretty good detail the way both of you came at it,

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you both acted as absolute professionals in the situation.

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You listened, you immediately rectified the situation to the best of your ability,

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and he was a pro to come directly to you instead of backmouthing you to others.

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He came directly to you and said,

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here's exactly what happened.

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from my point of view and here's exactly why this can't happen again.

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And you said, I hear you and you took care of it immediately.

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And so I say good for you both because you

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Yeah, and

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are both men about it.

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and and nobody wants Tim O'Connell to win a gold medal more than me.

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Like if I'm prejudiced and he knows that.

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Thank

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He knows that. He knows I want him on the medal stand because Tim

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and I've known each other so so long.

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And I love Tim and their I love the O'Connell family.

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They're friends of mine from way,

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way, way back. And so I think what he realized is I was just

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as upset as he was.

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Like both of us looked at each other during our opening ceremonies and

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I looked at him like, go, go get it today.

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Right. So I mean, there's emotion in that.

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And whether you're a producer or not,

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these are people that I care about.

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And I of course I don't want it to happen.

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But at the end of the day, we both we both said,

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it sucks, but it happens. And we just can't be negligent,

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right? On this.

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When the shit

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got saying you both were professionals and you both stepped

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up and were professionals so good on you for that.

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And he's winning. Like he's winning.

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I think I think he won dot six.

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I mean, I'm I'm just I want Tim because Tim will admit,

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you know, a bareback rider's lifestyle life,

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their body la doesn't last very long.

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And Tim knows he doesn't have he's

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was impressive.

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not at the beginning of his career.

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And he's got to he's got

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faster.

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to be careful to stay physically healthy enough to reach his goals.

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And I understand that. And things like that.

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you

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Don't help it. And he'll run across more along the way.

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And he knows that. But yeah, hats off to Tim.

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It breaks my heart that he didn't get on the metal platform because

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Okay.

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~

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he had the horse. He had the horse to do it.

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Like everything was there. It was the right horse for him.

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You know, and that's that's what makes it even that's what makes someone even more

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angry, even on the other end of the arena,

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right? When things look at the team roping at our event,

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you know, they're you know, and I watch Anthony because Anthony's announcing.

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He he's deep seated in the team roping world like you are.

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He's done it. He knows those guys.

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He's friends. And you you just see the disappointment when it doesn't work

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out for these guys. But that's the that's the unique thing of our sport.

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It it's it's so hard to have everything work perfect every time.

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It's just hard.

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While we're while we're in Salt Lake City,

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I would love and speaking of team members also.

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~ There was one evening it was Saturday before the radio

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~ and I had done a video clip with with team rep

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or Coleman Proctor and Then I realized that there was so much background noise.

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It wasn't that good. So I'm like,

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hey redo So he calls me he wakes me into the Justin sports medicine room.

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I You know, everybody talks about the Justin sports medicine all the time whatever

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But if people could see the visual of what I saw when I stepped into there,

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people have no idea what, I mean,

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they were, this is gonna come out weird,

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but they were working on Coleman Procter's groin,

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Styrus or Trisyn Kalawea's peck from missing a steer somewhere a couple days before.

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He wasn't even up that night, they were helping him.

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~ There's Cole Frank's.

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rolling around on a ball doing ~ positioning and things.

Speaker:

He's had nip surgery like Chad Mayfield who's trying to come back.

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I they're helping people who aren't even up that day.

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And there's guys in there that are lined up and they're like,

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it's like triage. Like, okay, this guy's up in the bear back riding.

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they have three or four tables and they're like,

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okay, we got to put him up first because he's in the second event.

Speaker:

It was insane, but no one was turned away.

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And if you need to have ice on your shoulder while you sit over here

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and wait your turn, Justice Forged Medicine provides

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a priceless gift to these guys.

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And so... ~

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Yeah, nobody, nobody gets it. You know,

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you

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can't really show video

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of that, but every

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Right. ~

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every day that room of ours,

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for instance, and we know it's that way all over,

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is just packed full. And you know,

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the the the Justin the Justin team of primary doctors and trainers that they send

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out that the Justin sports medicine team manages are pros.

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They're easy to get along with.

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They're they're

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They're often, you know, we make an effort,

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and I think more rodeos should,

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to not think of them as a pain.

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They're not a pain. You know, get them facilities where they can work on people.

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that they can work on.

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Get them the monitor so they can see the action.

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Get

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them good paramedics that can help them.

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Because just what you said, amen to

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Let's just switch to that.

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you. Thank God for the Justin Sports Medicine team and what they do

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Let's go to the absence. ~

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for a whole year.

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Like

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They don't get near enough credit.

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They don't.

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It's it's it's wild and people don't think that a team Roper would be

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in there to work on his groaning or his back.

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But there was Coleman Proctor and these guys are so grateful because that

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was you know, this is the same guy that's going to get in his truck

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and drive all night long to get Cheyenne the next day.

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Well, thank God for all the new sponsors.

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There's no doubt that it's wonderful that we have a lot of boots in the game

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and a lot of jeans in the game.

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But these legacy brands, we can't forget these legacy brands like Wrangler

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and Justin. You know, these are brands that have supported rodeo.

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And look at the sports medicine deal.

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How many boots do you think that they sell off of that?

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They do it because they're they're they're putting they're giving back

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to the lifestyle that supports their business.

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So.

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~

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And and Wrangler does this in so many ways.

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I mean, you know, with our Utah Cowgirl Collective,

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I said I want Wrangler and Justin.

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And the reason is because they're legacy brands.

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That doesn't mean that Cinch isn't fantastic.

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Cinch does amazing things in our sport.

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There are other boots that do amazing things.

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This is not downplaying what everybody's contributing,

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but let us not forget how long Justin and Wrangler have been supporting

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the Rodeo Cowboys and the Rodeos,

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because

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they're the real deal.

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Right, and I do remember. ~ In my 1st.

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Part of my career working in the PRCA office in Colorado Springs.

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There was literally a period of time where.

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There were lawsuits and different things without wrangler.

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The doors literally would have shut on the Hall of Fame and the PRCA period.

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So yes, ~ and while we're talking about injuries and stuff,

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I think we can't.

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move along without mentioning these major Stetson Wright being out,

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Rocker Steiner being out, Waisie Schella being out.

Speaker:

~ today is August 4th.

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Tomorrow, our reigning world champion,

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Stair wrestler Tucker Allen is having major reconstruction surgery on

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his left knee in Dallas, courtesy of our friend Tandy Freeman,

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out for the rest of the season.

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The complexion of some of these races is major league impacted

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by these huge outages,

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which apparently Stetson, my understanding,

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he's gonna be right back. But okay,

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Bradley Miller, he won your gold medal in Salt Lake City the other day.

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~ He's got like a 60 grand lead in the bear rec writing.

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Okay, but what's he just done?

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~

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With Stetson out, he's been going getting on bulls to throw his name

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in the all-around race. And this is like for me having decades behind me,

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I'm like, well, if this isn't,

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you know, remember the little era in the late 90s where Ty Murray,

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was like my phone was just, I was on speed dial

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Yeah.

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and he'd be like toots, toots,

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toots. And it was one knee, one shoulder,

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one, the other knee, the other shoulder like.

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He's out and then also on speed out the same time is like Joe Beaver

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and Fred Whitfield going, is it true?

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it true? Is it true? Ties out for the rest of the year and all of

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a sudden they're all entering another event.

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Well, anyway, let me guess that Bradley Miller coming from

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Sam Houston State coach Bubba Miller raised.

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~ let me guess without looking that Bradley Miller worked multiple events

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in college for team points, right?

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And so what's he done? He's gone to JB Mooney's Bucktown where Kyle Hamilton's

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hanging out and everything else.

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so.

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Yeah, but you gotta yes, hats off.

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I think it's that what you're bringing up is really cool,

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these guys looking at doing this.

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But from a businessman's perspective,

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okay. I think if I were on the time divine end,

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yeah, I would jump into other stuff.

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But I just have a hard time from a businessman's perspective,

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this instance.

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thinking

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that it's smart to get on a bull when you're gonna go to the NFR

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in the bareback riding. Sorry.

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But it just seems like these are there's so many recipes for more injuries

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on the rough stock end. There there is.

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Well, you know,

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I you know.

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okay, this is the fundamental math on it though.

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Stetson's got 310,000 in the all around and Bradley has 240.

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He's only 70,000 behind in the bear bear credit.

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These guys are weighing this stuff out every single day.

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This is a perfect

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Yeah, but when

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segue. Okay, we're talking about a couple of go-arounds.

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What's a gold buckle, what's a gold all around buckle worth if something were

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to happen like it did to Stetson a couple of years ago with his hamstring?

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What if he tries to come back and his shoulder says,

Speaker:

not quite yet?

Speaker:

Well,

Speaker:

or you get to the NFR if you were to qualify and you get to the NFR.

Speaker:

But the with with Stetson qualifying

Speaker:

that's.

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in two events, I mean, I think that's the key.

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You know, it y I think you need to be qualified in two events if you

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if you think you're gonna get anywhere close to Stetson at the end of the day.

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Unless for some reason, God forbid,

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Stetson can't be with us in Las Vegas.

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Well, I yeah.

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I mean, I hope that doesn't happen.

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I agree. I'm just I'm not so sure it's smart to get on a bull.

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That's I'm just saying. I I you know,

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I understand. I do. Okay.

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he's a great bareback rider. But but hey,

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hats off because I I I love that there's still some cowboy grit left.

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I again I'm I I'm not saying don't do it.

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I'm not because I th I respect cowboy grit and this I'm taking the re ride attitude.

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I've always had

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Thanks.

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respect. I don't always agree with it.

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I've been there like, no, don't take the re I didn't come here to get second.

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Okay.

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Well, hey,

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Paw Kettle, you have to admit with me that Bradlee Miller

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rolling like he is in the bareback riding and being way out in the lead,

Speaker:

getting on bulls is big brass balls,

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right? You have to admit that.

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A absolutely. I I I I I yeah.

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Okay, so

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where does the weight go between big brass balls

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I don't know. I don't know.

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and Paw Kettle saying, okay, that's it.

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Well well y

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maybe you just need to make sure that you have just as much brass but

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b in your between your ears as you do between your legs.

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That's all I'm saying.

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Okay, but look where he's going for a leg up or a little refresher course

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I I didn't I didn't say it was wrong.

Speaker:

in the board I can say he's going to bug

Speaker:

town and he's going to bug town and he's going to JP Mooney and Kai Hamilton

Speaker:

who are kings of big brass balls and We're gonna smoke indoors if we want

Speaker:

to and we're not gonna wear helmets and whatever and you can call them stupid

Speaker:

if you want Other people call them gangsters.

Speaker:

I didn't. I I did not call

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I don't know whatever whatever your perfect

Speaker:

them stupid. I'm just okay,

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fine. Fine. You know, again,

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Let's.

Speaker:

it's a free country. Do whatever you want.

Speaker:

I'm just saying I I'm just

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Thank

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reminding people to really calculate this stuff.

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Okay,

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Okay, that's all.

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thank you for teeing it up for me because I'm not saying that you're wrong,

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by the way. I'm just saying, you know,

Speaker:

there's the two sides to every story.

Speaker:

This is a perfect segue into let's talk about John Krimber.

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Let's talk about John Krimber who just won a million bucks in the PBR

Speaker:

and is doing the all night drives,

Speaker:

the Capri camper to because he wants to be the first guy to ever win

Speaker:

the world in the PBR and the PRCA the same year.

Speaker:

Is that stupid, Skippy? Because a lot of people would say,

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holy shit, what are you doing?

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Well, I guess the only the only difference is is he's he's the best bull rider

Speaker:

in the nation, knows how to he's not learning to ride bareback horses.

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~ yes, I I think but but but he's going after

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you know he's going after something that's never been done.

Speaker:

Thank you.

Speaker:

That's one thing, right? That's a different thing.

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He has the talent to do

Speaker:

Thank

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it. He does. I mean, you know,

Speaker:

it's interesting to me.

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it's a good thing his dad's the coach,

Speaker:

So.

Speaker:

but you know, his injury isn't helping their team right now at all.

Speaker:

If you watch the teams event, his groin,

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you know, i it's it's so I I think it's I think it's fantastic.

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Okay. I I it was it I loved seeing him on the back of our shoots

Speaker:

and nobody could have rode his short go bull.

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Nobody would have rode that bull.

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~

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didn't particularly love him in the draw,

Speaker:

frankly, because I would have liked to

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Well.

Speaker:

seen ~ Krimber ride because he can ride almost anything.

Speaker:

~

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So ~ I agree. I think that that's what makes our sport different,

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right? That that these guys, ~ you know,

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and I think there's probably a part of Crimber that's like,

Speaker:

I want to know what it's like to be sitting there sweating and eating a corn

Speaker:

dog in the back of a van, and it's gonna make him a better bull rider.

Speaker:

Cause the rest of these little punks that are flying in there and staying

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in a Marriott.

Speaker:

and going and doing their fifteen pushups and then watching their PowerPoint

Speaker:

on what they should eat and never having rodeoed,

Speaker:

this is gonna make Crimber a better bull rider,

Speaker:

period.

Speaker:

Well,

Speaker:

and remember to what he's told me at Salt Lake City,

Speaker:

I'm like, why? And he said, I want to do this because my dad,

Speaker:

my dad is my ultimate hero. And he not only went to the NFR,

Speaker:

but he won the NFR. you know, Pablo Primer is John's hero.

Speaker:

And so that's part of his why also.

Speaker:

you know, interesting and yeah.

Speaker:

Cool. It's cool.

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And so, ~ there's so many different ways to go.

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I it's hard for me to leave Salt Lake City.

Speaker:

There's so many things that happen there.

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Well, I guess while we're talking about injuries,

Speaker:

I would say something.

Speaker:

Let's let's talk about the other end of the arena.

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Let's talk about Chad Mayfield.

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So, you know, everybody knows he has two hip surgeries and then he's trying to,

Speaker:

you know, pull a code, you all.

Speaker:

And how fun for me right now when Cody all is texting me like,

Speaker:

you know, what he just told Chad and,

Speaker:

and here, here, you know, shots been doing some winning and you know,

Speaker:

can he come back at Reno and make the finals and Hey,

Speaker:

if he's got a chip in a chair in Vegas,

Speaker:

never count him out. Everybody knows that.

Speaker:

And

Speaker:

Something that happened Sunday night a couple days ago was tough.

Speaker:

I know we're bouncing all over the place,

Speaker:

but it was was tough to watch.

Speaker:

Maybe more than anything as a rodeo mom because he was high man back

Speaker:

in the short run at Dodge City.

Speaker:

And you know,

Speaker:

but that human error was made at the short run.

Speaker:

Cows were 100 miles away when the short run happened.

Speaker:

OK, you heard about that or no?

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Yeah, I did. I don't know. I I don't know how that

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OK, it's too bad and I'm not here to just,

Speaker:

you know.

Speaker:

happens. Like I just

Speaker:

100.

Speaker:

I can't wrap my head around how that went down.

Speaker:

I understand b I understand one thing.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

I I don't I'm sorry, I'd have to do a little more digging.

Speaker:

I don't so so for non rodeo fans,

Speaker:

correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause you're you're way more way more in tune with

Speaker:

the time to event end. But for instance at our rodeo,

Speaker:

Let's start it back up.

Speaker:

they rope all of the cattle.

Speaker:

And then our like Guatney w John Guatney,

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who did a really good job for us,

Speaker:

Thank you.

Speaker:

he he works they pick they pick the short go cattle,

Speaker:

right?

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And those get pulled off, and that's the short go cattle,

Speaker:

right? And ~ and but so I I

Speaker:

I I don't I I don't know how someone

Speaker:

The short-nosed cattle

Speaker:

typically, historically the short-nosed cattle are brought back by the guys

Speaker:

who make the short-nosed In other words,

Speaker:

tend to be the best end of the herd.

Speaker:

Correct. Correct.

Speaker:

Okay?

Speaker:

And I just don't know how someone,

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right? I again, I I wasn't there and I'm not throwing any daggers at anybody,

Speaker:

but how someone with I mean, these guys catch everything.

Speaker:

How someone can't look at that pen of cattle or s how someone well,

Speaker:

Wawaw.

Speaker:

and

Speaker:

maybe they did. I again I I haven't done enough research on this.

Speaker:

~ I I it it just that that's terrible.

Speaker:

It's terrible. So what you know.

Speaker:

the chips.

Speaker:

My my

Speaker:

my what what what Shad Mayfield ~ posted in a public comment was that basically what

Speaker:

happened is is they drew out of the wrong ~ can of of chips with with

Speaker:

the with the drawing numbers on it.

Speaker:

So was his was his calf terrible?

Speaker:

yeah, he was eliminated, he was high back and so I understand,

Speaker:

you know, the two sides to every story,

Speaker:

you know, people are people are people and

Speaker:

People are human and mistakes happen.

Speaker:

Apparently, according to what Shad explained publicly,

Speaker:

was that by the time anyone realized the error,

Speaker:

the the the short ramp calves were a hundred miles away.

Speaker:

So I mean it's too bad from you know,

Speaker:

nobody's going to disagree with,

Speaker:

you know, everybody wanted the bet best man to win.

Speaker:

And and none of us is ever gonna know what would have happened if

Speaker:

the right calves had been there.

Speaker:

But if you're Shad Mayfeld and you're you're trying to pull a rabbit out of the hat,

Speaker:

Cody Old style, coming back.

Speaker:

halfway through the season, you know,

Speaker:

spotting the field like that and you've been on a roll and your high man back,

Speaker:

~ everybody understands and and you know can feel for instance.

Speaker:

It's no different than Tim's deal.

Speaker:

~

Speaker:

It's no different than Tim's deal.

Speaker:

But you know, now that I'm thinking about it,

Speaker:

I can see how the stock contractors and the

Speaker:

showrunners, they don't pay near the attention to the cattle that

Speaker:

the that the ropers do. They know them by their twitch and their eye which one's

Speaker:

the good one. And I can see them just

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

sorting off cattle, assuming that that

Speaker:

was the good pin and s and sending the others away not knowing the difference.

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Yeah,

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So I can I

Speaker:

can see, because earlier I said I don't see how this happens actually.

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Yeah,

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I can see how how it could happen.

Speaker:

I yeah, it's it's very unfortunate.

Speaker:

And and also for the tiny bit end,

Speaker:

there were a couple things that that still stand out to me about that week

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of Salt Lake and you know some other great rodeos also.

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~ one was that on Saturday night,

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Utah,

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you know, Cash Rob won his second gold medal at

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The days of 47, which which was you know super cool in front of

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his home state crowd. And at the same time in Lincoln,

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Nebraska, it also in steer wrestling,

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~ the Austin brothers, ~ Ace and Burke went one-two in not only the steer wrestling,

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but the all-around at the at the high school finals.

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~ that was a really special night for ~ Utah.

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And so I I just worth worth a mention.

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Congratulations to the Utah Steer Wrestlers.

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Utah has it going on in the steer ups line,

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which you know everybody's like,

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why? But but also this year, you know,

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Cash's little brother Cruz is the national shoot dogging junior high champ.

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~ so there's a lot brewing there.

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But that was a very special night.

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And in the same 24-hour period,

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there was something that happened that that I think ~ people really related

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to just as you know on the human interest side side of rodeo.

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That what was it Friday night ~ before the rodeo,

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I was out in your parking lot in Salt Lake City and talked for a minute

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to Derrick Begay and Colter Todd and and they were pretty,

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you know, like sad. And those guys don't say much ever.

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But you know, things hadn't been really rolling,

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but the but the sad part was their dad hearts being,

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you know, drawn away from the rodeo trail.

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And and to their credit,

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They sucked it up, they roped,

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they were four or five that night in the perf on their second steer at Salt Lake.

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And then they went to, you know,

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head for the all, you know, the all-night drive,

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and they made it four blocks away from the the rodeo grounds there Salt Lake City

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and they looked at each other.

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They're best friends besides being roping partners,

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and they're like, No. And they turned around and they went back

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to the rodeo grounds, and Colter flew out the next morning to.

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~ to Lincoln to watch ~ his boys Traven and Colter Lee rope in

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the short run together. They were third high call.

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They ended up winning it. He got to be there for that.

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they didn't make it to Deadwood,

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but he got to be there for that.

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And and by the same token, ~ Begay flew home and was there Monday morning

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~ for his daughter Brindle's seventh birthday.

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And so that that's cool.

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I mean

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That's

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that's the real deal.

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When when people look at those

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guys and hang on their every word because they don't say very many words

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and think that they're so cool and you know,

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look at Coulter, he doesn't have any patches on his shirt.

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Why? Because he's like, well, because this isn't how I make my living.

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You know, his heart is is home with his family on the ranch.

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That's the way. But they're this is how they are and who they

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are when nobody's looking. And I just think pretty cool.

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I mean, those guys.

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Super cool.

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If there is such a thing as gangster cowboys,

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it'd be those two and they're gonna say the least about it.

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So good for those guys.

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Well

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i anybody that puts family first is number one in my book.

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And it's hard because it's a balance.

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There's some house.

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You're trying to,

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you know, you're you're trying to reach your goals and keep family first.

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So that's a that is a super cool story.

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I can see

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Super cool story.

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Well, let's we talked about Salt Lake,

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let's talk about Cheyenne. ~ we kind of we kind of talked about it a little bit.

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I'll just start out with a something a little bit lighthearted.

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I don't know what everybody else thought,

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but there were a lot of 90 point rides.

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I mean, a lot of 90 point rides.

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and you know,

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and I and I'm looking at our event and and watching the rides to see.

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Well there's kind

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And so there's been some comments about the judges at Cheyenne.

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of some

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~ perfect ~

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Of course, the judges come up everywhere.

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We, we, we at our rodeo, I thought we had a good sound set of judges.

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There was some variance there.

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There was stuff I didn't agree with there at our rodeo,

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and that's normal. And I can deal with that.

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They're the judges. They saw it their way.

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~ I what I haven't heard about Cheyenne,

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~ and I did a little bit of texting to the people,

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and that is at the end of the day,

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folks, back off. If if they inflated the scores a little bit,

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back off as long as the right guys took home checks,

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right?

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And if the right guys

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took home checks, then don't sweat it,

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don't worry about it. That's my take on that,

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~

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on Cheyenne. Did you in have you heard anything about what what what sideline

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reporting do you have from Cheyenne?

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Well, I wasn't I wasn't there.

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we all

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Well, I mean, you but you don't

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have to be there. You're kinda like Game of Thrones,

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right?

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Funks.

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If you you've got you've got all your little you're the whisperer.

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I'm

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You've got

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all your little spies everywhere.

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So don't give me this. ~ I wasn't there.

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Don't give me that. You've got something from Cheyenne.

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Well Okay.

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I'll admit this. Part of why I wasn't there is because there was no Slack.

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Okay. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.

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~ so see Cheyenne, that's what it feels like to get the stiletto.

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So

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Okay,

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go ahead.

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Anyway, I you know there's a lot of ~ it it felt

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on Sundays like they couldn't buy a break.

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I I'm just gonna say most you know most of my cowboy friends

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do not do not appreciate the new format.

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Some of them, including event director ~ Shane Hanshee,

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has publicly said it will change.

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Watch. That's that's a direct quote.

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So I don't know because I haven't been in those boardrooms.

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I don't know what the future holds there.

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~ I did feel like there were some things that happened.

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~ there was pure chaos and that we could all see and hear from afar.

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And then ~ my lord, then you know,

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it goes viral, ~ a barrel horse flat slap in the ground,

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right? And and they there was some tough stuff that happened.

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~

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So I don't

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Yeah, well

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and and I I you know, you can't always so I will

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say that Cheyenne actually in the last couple years they've been slow moving.

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This year more.

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Yeah.

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They paid way more attention to their ground because I know

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Yeah, just for one.

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who they had in there in advance.

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I know what they were doing. you know,

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when you watch something, th I I guess they found they found a hard pan spot right.

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There in that giant arena. You know,

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there's always some things to make it better.

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~ they are paying attention to their ground and they want to get it right.

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And I think that's a move in the right direction instead of instead of it

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is what it is, learn how to ride on it.

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I don't believe in that. and ~ I know for a fact that some of our people were

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on the phone with Cheyenne and that there was efforts to make sure that that

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was corrected. So

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You know, I I agree that it's never good when a horse goes down.

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But there's you can watch, I watch it at ours,

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you can watch, you know, the real the real pros.

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Here's the deal. When I see some of the really,

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really aces, the jockeys, have trouble,

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right? Especially after a run or two and they know what they're dealing with,

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then I'm then I'm like, shame on,

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right? Otherwise, it needs to be fixed.

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So that's my little two cents on that.

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Well, there was there

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there was one day when ~ when it you know the wheels really fell off when

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you know everything fell to pieces and then

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The first person after the drag was was Brittany Posey Tanazi,

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multiple time world champion, and she said no.

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And the judges, to their credit,

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said okay. ~ and they they stopped it.

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And then they gave everybody the option,

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just so everybody knows, if you'd already run,

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you had the option of running the next morning at eight AM,

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I think it was. And the people who hadn't run yet had the option of

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of running the next morning. I don't know how many people chose that.

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I know the horses that fell. I've

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feel like they were sore and they so they didn't they didn't do it,

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you know, kinda like Tim O'Connell didn't take his rewrite because he wanted

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to make sure he didn't have a broken back before,

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you know, which was really wise in the heat of the moment.

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But ~ anyway, s again,

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neither one of us was there. I would because I think one of the harsh criticisms

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I would love not here to neither of us is here to attack specific rodeos

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or specific people, but but I think one of the one of those ~ big

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Ticket items with my cowboy friends there.

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And I would love, you know, for you to address it from your point of view,

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producing a rodeo. Let's talk about top loading payoffs.

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Because one of the big criticisms that that people said to me was,

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I'm not gonna, you know, a lot of the bullers didn't go and they said,

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I'm not gonna run one over a score like that for was it two

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or three thousand dollars? ~ so

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Let's talk just in general about top letting payoffs and your feeling about that.

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Well

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~ so you want you want your rodeo to have an impact,

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right? And so the the people that win your rodeos,

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you want them to be able to have significant improvement in the standings.

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~ I think it's a balancing act,

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Kendra. I think in a situation in a situation with ~ in

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in in the case of particularly maybe Cheyenne or

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That's

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Salinas.

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dribbling it down. I'm still I'm s I'm still ingrained,

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~

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and maybe it's the old man in me,

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that you just don't give blue ribbons forty feet down,

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right? If you give every kid on the peewee team a blue ribbon and tell they do good,

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but let me just interrupt you for a try.

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that they're not gonna get better.

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Let me interrupt you for a moment because I saw the three feet tall trophies

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you gave to every muttonbuster in Salt Lake City skip.

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That's that's not that's not the analogy I'm making.

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I'm just

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saying that that sometimes

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not winning makes you better. Sometimes not winning makes you go home,

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and maybe you need to go home.

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listen, I there's there's probably a good argument both ways,

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spreading the money out and top loading it.

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But I'm not pretty sure.

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~ and I I'm an advocate of impactful prize money.

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~

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Right. I'm not an advocate of taking seventy thousand dollars and dividing

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it up seven hundred ways. Now,

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in particular at our at our rodeo,

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we we shoved some more money into those earlier rounds intentionally when

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we added more money, but I kept my base money up there where I wanted it,

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right? The the top three and we pay all eight.

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If you come into our ours, all eight get a check.

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So you're gonna get a check when you when you come into our rodeo.

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and with the exception of ground money,

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Okay,

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you know, some different ground money rules.

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and I would love to to interrupt to say that the three medalists so people know gold

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medal came with eighteen grand,

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a silver medal came with thirteen grand,

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and a bronze medal came with eight grand.

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That's that's very impressive.

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Well, but it's not, you know, we again we we in the short go we paid eight holes

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down. I'm I'm just saying I I do understand.

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I I understand your point of view and I understand the committees.

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I don't think that I have a magic bullet for this.

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I think that if the if there's more people playing and the conditions are harder,

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you know, I think in a progressive where you're limiting it,

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I think there's probably an argument for top

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Right.

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top loading because that's the the best against the best.

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I think if you open that up more,

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that you should give more people opportunities to win money because it's harder

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Only under

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to get there, you know,

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in that particular environment.

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So I don't I don't have a I don't have a great I don't have a great

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~ stance on this. I I see the reason for top-loading it.

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That's

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~

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I see you want your prize money to be impactful,

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right? And you could admit that.

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You want to see that someone wins your rodeo.

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it significantly helps them in the standings.

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I appreciate that. I appreciate the people that when,

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you know, are sitting I appreciate what you're saying.

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You're sitting eighth hole and you barely cover your fuel and getting there.

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I I appreciate that too. And I I

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right.

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don't know that I have a a really good argument for either.

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I I see both sides of the story,

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So let's just keep the

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if that makes sense.

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conversation open. Let's move on to another ~ thing that I thought was interesting.

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Let's talk about buckorder and the rough stock.

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Because

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Yeah.

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you explain who decides it it and you explain to

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me how the deck is not stacked in certain favors to sell the performance.

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Explain that.

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No. Okay.

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Well, so yes, stock contractors in our case in our rodeo.

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Yeah, we've just got a machine.

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So there's a couple things that you have to understand

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from a production standpoint. You're our goals,

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we can't lose sight of the fact that the people in the stands,

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literally, the people that buy the tickets are what brings the tide into

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the bay that lifts all ships. Because sponsors don't come if there's not fans.

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We can have a number of versions of the next one.

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We've had this conversation. So you

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need to package this.

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So that the fans have the best experience

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But it's a bit.

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while balancing competition. So in

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~

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in the case when I was doing the PBR and with our rodeo,

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Right.

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it's really simple. We really buck them,

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we

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try to buck them primarily in the right order that they're loaded,

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primarily, not exclusively. And you do want to,

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there's nothing wrong with putting really good matchups.

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~

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I don't think there's any wrong wrong with it.

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At the

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end. Now, an athlete's side is going to be,

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well, the first guy never wins.

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Well, that has nothing to do, Kendra,

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with us as producers or stock contractors or show.

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You know what that is? That's bad judging.

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Because the way I look at it, the first guy should have if the judges

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are tuned in and they know what they're doing,

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there's no reason that the first guy is setting some kind of bar for the rest

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of the performance. That's just amateur judging,

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frankly.

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And we're professionals and I have to assume that the four judges I have there will

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give the first guy what he deserves and he should win.

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Right? And if

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okay,

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let's take a specific example.

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We're in Utah. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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We're in Utah.

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Was it intentional that Reiner and Statler Wright went last in one perf?

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Mm.

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I'm sure there was I'm sure I'm sure there was discussions on they would

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be the right guys to end the round in.

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But so what? Well,

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The right guides? ~

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I mean they're the blue shirts and you're in Utah,

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but what what difference does that make if the judging's correct?

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And listen, listen.

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Okay, fair. That is absolutely true.

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And and I'm a fan of the of the blue shirts.

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So so don't look at me like that.

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But I'm just saying in general,

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if you're in Utah and also there's there's a lot all

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the time online about I didn't know so

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and so announcer was was also a judge or whatever.

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How much pressure is there on the announcers to again sell,

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you know, do the how much does it does the announcer want,

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and I'm not talking about Salt Lake City here,

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I'm talking about another rodeo that happened in the last week that's just getting

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pummeled over this. How much pressure is there on the announcer to

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to in turn pressure the judges to sell it and have the last guy or two knock

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it out of the park with the crowd?

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No, I don't think any so from an announcer's perspective,

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Well that's which yeah.

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and these

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announcers can send us some feedback if they want.

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Their their job is to take every diamond in the field,

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right? And make sure that it's recognized,

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right? To sell everything you have to sell.

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Their job is also to take the underdogs and set up the story and along with

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the music, right? That this underdog could win.

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Now, when you when you have the rights at the end.

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Right. And and you know, you know,

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you've got 10,000 people in the stands that when you say a right's name,

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they're gonna lose their cookies.

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Yeah, they're gonna take advantage of it.

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That's what they're paid to do.

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They're paid to take advantage and it makes them look good,

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right? If the announcer's standing there and he drops a line and

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the crowd goes wild, I look over at my guys and wink at them.

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Good job. That's their job. Now,

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again, I go back to the same thing that the right guy should win.

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That's the competition. By the way,

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that's what the PRCA should be focusing on is that the right guys get to

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Okay,

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the NFR and the right guy gets a good buckle.

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And you know what that's directly tied to?

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That's directly tied to the judging.

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Like it directly tied, like there's no room,

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zero room in our sport for non-qualified judges.

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Bring it on. Anybody, bring on your comments.

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Bring on everything. There's no room for that.

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Yeah. I don't think anybody

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can go against you, but but the two words I would have for you that just kind

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of cover it all for me are competitive integrity.

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And and if you're not, if if you have the

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two gunslingers last in front of their hometown crowd,

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if you're the third guy out because the you're saying the stock contractor.

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Did as a stock contractor in case but the producers

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Well, w there's all there's there's all

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of us all of us are in control of that.

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And we can set the buck order however we want to set the buck order.

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And that's fine. And I we'll just respectfully disagree that

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by doing that somehow you're changing the competitive advantage.

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~ because again, I sorry,

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but if a rookie goes out first and he rides a twenty-three pointer

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and he sticks iron in his neck all the

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Yeah,

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way, he should win.

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And that's a better story for the rodeo to come back and say the rookie beat

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the blue shirts at the first ride of the night.

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So I'm not gonna travel down that road because I think it's all a bunch

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It's not allowed to have

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of baloney if the judging's correct.

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a

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Sorry. And this whole, ~ the announcers,

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lot of breakfast.

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~ the announcers blessed him and now he won.

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The announcers are judge. ~ go home.

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Get good judges. The judges aren't listening to that.

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Or if they are, they shouldn't be.

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Right? Come on, get a grip. No,

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I I respectfully disagree with you.

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Go out there and win. Now the problem

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You you

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you Yeah, but you're you're saying you respectfully disagree with me.

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I didn't throw my opinion out there.

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Yes, you did. You said, hold on.

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I asked questions I asked questions and no

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You didn't you

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slyly said, Don't you think it's a competitive advantage that those

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two guys from Salt Lake City go last?

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You might not have directly said it,

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but I know where you're going with this and I just don't agree.

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If my

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hey, if my questions offend you,

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that's on you.

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I'm not offended. We're debating.

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We're debating it.

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Well you're

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you're you might not be offended,

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but you're ~ what's that word?

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Defensive? Defensive? I'm not no,

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You're defensive as hell. Why does it get your blood pressure

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no, I'm state ~ No no no no no no no.

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up if if my questions are so out of line?

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It

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here's the deal. I it because I think I think that everybody

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that nods their head should have I guess I'm irritated with the fact that some

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of this stuff gets gets shadows on it because

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Mm-hmm.

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the judges don't

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do what the judges should do. Right.

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I'm sorry, okay.

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And

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and and I'm not, no, I'm honestly not defensive.

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I mean, at the end of the day,

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That's it.

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as a producer, do I want, do I want to put someone out last that I know

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is not going to ride?

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No. No, I don't.

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Okay,

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okay, okay. Here's here's another let's go one more example and then I'm

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and then I won't bring up any more examples here.

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~ okay, there was a night in Salt Lake City where it was like this is a dream.

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~ you got your your one two rookies and your one three guys in the bull riding,

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Noah Lee and Hayden Welsh were out.

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They both bucked off and then two guys I to tell you the truth,

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don't remember who they were. Is there anything done

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Please just this is please enlighten me also to put more writable bulls toward

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the end, because that really is the cell of your perf,

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no?

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I don't I don't think that was the case in our case.

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I think it was more chance ~ in the way everything went down in corners and stuff.

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~ I'm not saying that other rodeos and stock contractors,

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when stock contractors are pushing the rodeos,

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that they don't that they don't load them with with more rideable bulls at the end.

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But at the end of the day, when you've got when you've got no elite,

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you got these guys that you you believe are gonna ride.

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You can put them anywhere in a in a set of eight bulls or in you know,

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there was one day I think we had six bulls because we had a couple turnouts,

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It's simple because it's a problem.

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which again, I just it I I don't understand how you turn out a rodeo that

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That's not a certain other shift.

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has six hundred and something or seven hundred and something thousand dollars added

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~

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money. But you know, a visible injury I get all this.

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It just ~ so to answer your question,

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I think there are rodeos that do that.

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I can't say that that that's

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That's a bad policy, because of course,

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Kendra, there's nothing better than your last bull rider rides.

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If you watch me on my podium, the last guy rides,

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~ prepared.

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I throw my hand up because it's exactly what I want for my crowd,

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~

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because I'm fixing to turn the lights out.

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I want that to be their last memory.

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So I I get it. The question is is if it the it would be,

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I would need to be strongly considerate if I thought that it was

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if if it's a if it's a competitive if what you said.

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~

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Is this a competitive advantage?

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Like, does this give someone an advantage?

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If it does, that's wrong and that's on the judges.

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But mixing mixing it up to be the best for the fans shouldn't be a problem,

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Yeah,

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right? It shouldn't be a problem if we have professional judging.

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And I'm I'm gonna stay on that.

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and so

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you know, not to because we it feels like the judgment comes up all the time

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and for the ten thousandth time.

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I I'm I'm back to like how I feel about teachers.

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We need to pay qualified judges exponentially more

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money. That's the answer. For me,

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I agree. I agree. I agree. We had a whole podcast on that.

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that's the answer. And so there's no s not,

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you know, there's no reason to be that advantage.

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I agree. I I think these these major rodeos

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with major prize money, you know,

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and I think they're doing the best they can,

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but I don't I I'm sorry. I don't think it's good enough.

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I I don't. I I don't think there's any level of excuses when

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it comes to judging as far as association.

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I skipped that should

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I mean,

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I understand the realities of it,

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and I'm not na you know, I'm not saying

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Any of these judges aren't trying their best,

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but their best may not be good enough.

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You know, and that's a problem.

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And I I still think it's a problem.

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~

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I think it's something, you know,

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people are worried about entering and ~ we're gonna change this

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and

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it that well.

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The draw, ~

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A shoot gate, all these things,

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you can't have the judges be a variable.

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It's just it it let's move on.

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Well, you

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Let's move on.

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and I you and I could go toe to toe all day.

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You, my friend, need to catch a plane.

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I would just

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There you threw something out as opinion ~ earlier,

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and I'll just I'll just finish with one I I I have eighteen thousand tidbits

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up my sleeves from being out there at these radios here lately.

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But I thought it was really interesting.

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You, you know, you you said something about John Cripper's,

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you know, the best board in the world,

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and a lot of people feel that way.

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But interesting when I asked Hayden Welsh.

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So just out of curiosity, who do you think is the best bull writer

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in the world right now? You know what he said?

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Sage Kimsey. I thought that was interesting.

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That's what Hayden Walsh thinks.

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Well, th there's there

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Speaking

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of people who truly want to go where no man has gone before and pulled

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up short of Donegade's record when he surely would have gotten it or still

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may at some point if he decides to go a different route.

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But I just thought that was really interesting.

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One of our brightest stars, his opinion is Sage Kemsey's the best.

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Well th because

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I thought that was

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interesting.

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well, but Sage is so it depends on what what you're what you're using

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for greatest bull rider

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Thanks for

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in the world, right? It's the same thing as greatest basketball player

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in the world as an MJ or LeBron.

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It's w what are your qualifications for that?

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That

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those aren't written down. Now,

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is Sage Kimsey a mentor, a leader,

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a a ~ technically and fundamentally f unbelievably

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Okay.

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great bull rider? Yes. Has he has he not

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With gold buckles proving how great he is,

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X one.

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and Krimber hasn't yet. I'm just for me,

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~

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it's laying two guys side by side in the moment.

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Young Krimber with the reaction time that's unbelievable,

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with a whole list of injuries that Sage doesn't have on his bedpost,

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right? You put those two guys together now on the same bull.

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Poof, that's a tricky one too,

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because Sage's experience comes in.

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But I I just Krimber

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Krimber's got, he's got the youth,

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he's got the passion, he's got the drive,

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right? ~ and Sage has got the experience and a lot of injuries and

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a little age on him. You know,

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in the moment, Krimber,

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this is my opinion. Krimber is the is the best bull rider in the world,

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in my opinion, today. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't think that Noah can't

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outride him one night anywhere.

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That's ~ that's not it. I'm just from my perspective.

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Well

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perspective.

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Noah,

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you know what? That was really interesting too,

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'cause cause Noah and Hayden are such headliners right now,

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and rightly so. And Noah got the shit beat out of him in Salt Lake City

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Yeah.

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and turned right around

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and went and kicked ass at Cheyenne the next day with a broken nose.

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So don't think he's not a tough old son of a bitch.

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He he did, you know. You know,

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and it's it you can see the wear on these guys.

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this.

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You can see the wear on Krimber.

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You know, this getting on every day,

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right, and traveling is a different game,

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right? It's a different game. And that's why I said,

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heads up, heads up, Krimber, because he's learning some stuff that he's gonna take

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into the PBR teams that's gonna give him an edge,

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which by the way, Sage brought in there,

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right? You know, I mean

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There you these are things that are

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Yeah.

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that are ~ undeniable ~ advantages.

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You know, go get in a rodeo truck,

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go down the road, draw bulls. You know,

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Krimber, you know, he's drawn into pins.

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That's a whole different game for him.

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You know, when they draw into a pin at the PBR bowls,

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you you you they're all there might be one that only he can ride,

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right? But they're you're not drawing some no good rotten.

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I mean, we had a couple bulls in our outs that I was like,

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yeah.

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Now that wasn't their trips, but yuck,

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they don't belong in this pin.

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Now that wasn't their trips, and in fairness,

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you know, the Bull Riders looked at all of them and you know,

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we get contestants input on all the stock.

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We have five different stock contractors.

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We have Pete Carr there. You know,

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Pete Carr could inevitably do our rodeo with all his stuff,

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a lot of his stuff set, right?

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Because I want the best of everybody's.

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So back to Krimber, I, you know,

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I I'm with, I'm with, I'm with you.

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I mean, I I would think that

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If I had to say, who should you look up to today,

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Hayden? Sage. Absolutely. Who should you pattern yourself after?

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Sage. Absolutely. Who's gonna ride the same bull in and out with all

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the things the same? Today, Krimber is gonna probably ride something that Sage

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may not. That's my opinion.

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Here's here's what I'm gonna do as your as your friend,

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my red faced friend.

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Am I red faced?

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We both

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need to live to fight another day,

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and that starts with you.

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Catching this plane and not missing it.

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So I think

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I'm good. I'm good.

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I I wanna ~ there's a couple other little things that I think are really that

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I thought were interesting. So did you see on social media the skydiver coming

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in with the American flag at Folsom,

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Colorado, and then coming to an abrupt stop?

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Did you see? Or Folsom California,

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Folsom, Colorado or California?

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No. I did not see it, but no.

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California, California. Yeah,

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I saw the video on it. my goodness,

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because we do, we've done skydiving at our deal.

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It's so cool when it comes in.

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But if you haven't seen that on social,

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it's alarming at first.

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Because it's da-da-da. And they have this final approach where the flags coming

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in and everybody's getting ready to

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Yes.

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scream when they hit the dirt.

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And I mean a very abrupt stop.

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And I I found out from Reno that the guy is completely fine,

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by the way, everybody, thanks to the Coors pop-up tent.

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So he evidently, when he hit the clothesline wire or whatever,

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he basically cantilevered down a hundred miles an hour and hit a pop-up tent.

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And is okay. So he's okay. So if you saw that,

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that guy's that guy's okay. I thought that was you know,

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and it's interesting because I almost messed up.

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We brought Sky Cam into Salt Lake City and we always always traditionally have

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skydivers, and it was about a month out that I'm like,

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I can't have skydivers and have Sky Cam in.

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And by the way, Stephen Wharton and the Sky Cam crew,

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that that that Sky Cam is is amazing it to to help.

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Help viewers see the breath and the and everything.

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Sky Sky Cam is is really, really cool.

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~ the last thing that I wanted to bring up,

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lighthearted, but I wanted to get your opinion and tell people if they saw it.

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So, did you hear in Reno the name of the bull that got all the attention because

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it was a racial slur? Did you hear about that?

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Yes. Yes.

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Well, I just had to dig into that because I'm like,

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what? So I

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Anthony's my brother's announcing it.

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So I text him, I said, Were you the guy that announced the name of the bull?

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And he said yes. And so here I just want,

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because I think this is interesting because I dug into it a little bit.

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The bull's name was Nick Gertz,

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N-I-C-K, capital G-E-R-T-S.

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Now, if you're sitting and listening to the podcast or you're watching us,

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try saying that really fast five times.

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And and if you if you don't have an S on it,

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then you get you get what the racial slur is.

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Because I was trying to figure out what it was,

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right? How is it a a racial slur?

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But maybe I'm a little slow. and so I see how it happened.

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And ~ they changed the name and of the bull,

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but boy, you know, again,

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you gotta be careful because you don't want to you don't want to upset anybody.

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Anybody's perception is reality.

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and you know, so that's where that.

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That's where that came from. I thought it was because I'm like,

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what was I cause I read the name Nick Gertz?

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I'm like, I don't, I don't get it.

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What what until I got a little perspective.

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And if you say that, if you're an announcer and you say it really fast

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and maybe you don't stress the S,

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you can see where that's coming from.

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Kind of like the old joke where you called the bar and asked for,

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I'm not even gonna bring those names up,

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~

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and they announced over the loudspeaker,

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could so and so and so-and-so come to the bar?

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And if it's said real fast, so that's where all that was.

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And I think let's end.

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a very interesting conversation on a lighthearted note.

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no nobody was intended to be offended there.

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And the name was changed, by the way.

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So there you have it.

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On that, you know what? ~ sorry,

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but we're gonna just keep having one more,

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one more, more one more. But ~ on the perceptionist reality.

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~ you know, point that's always that was always true.

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And and right now I have a real heart for our friends at Salinas who just

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had a whale of a rodeo, amazing,

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awesome. We talked about some of the reasons why.

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And then right now they're going through torture because

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a non-PRCA rodeo over the weekend

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or event related to rodeo.

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happened and they're getting pummeled over an animal welfare issue that

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has nothing to do with professional rodeo and it's really tough.

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~ but that these are the sorts of this is the tap dance that we're

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all playing in twenty twenty six because of so many sensitivities

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in society that weren't there thirty or four years ago.

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Well, it's interesting that you brought that up.

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See, we're just one

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on. Here we'll we'll go longer than we should.

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But I reached out to Reno. By the way,

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Reno Rosser and Flying Your Rodeo,

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they're at the forefront of this battle,

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right, that is waging on the West Coast on Rodeo.

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And hats off to Reno and all and a lot of others.

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The PRCA is involved, a lot of people that are involved in this.

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And I said, What's up with the ban on rodeo in LA?

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And he said it's dead. It's it it

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it didn't it didn't go through that the council member that was advocating

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it ~ you know that that may not still be on the council.

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But you bring up a really good point.

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You know, professional rodeo and the WPRA,

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they can't control or monitor all of this other stuff that's out there,

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which could potentially be fatal for our sport.

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And I'm with you. I mean the amount of effort that Salinas puts in

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any West Coast rodeo.

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The amount of effort that they have to put in to make sure that they don't

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Yes, there's

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a common. ~

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get pummeled is unbelievable that there's still a rodeo on the West Coast,

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right? Because it's almost why do it?

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Right. Like why even it's not even worth the headache.

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But thank God and hats off to you guys for continu because that's where

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it all originated. You bring it up all the time.

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There's great the West Coast is,

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you know, part of the foundation of our

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sport and it's gotta stay there.

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~

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But you bring up a valid point.

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And I don't, you know, what do we do?

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But say, you know, but you be you also have to pay attention to even some

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of these pro rodeos, you know,

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you know, how they handle these situations is is important and

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Well, it it and it in in it it all the ball bounces both directions,

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by the way, because

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Reno being on the forefront and and a guy like Tim Baldwin from Salinas being

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on the front lines and different people.

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let's not forget that what a year or two ago when it when it all came down

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on the rodeo band in LA, who saved the day?

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The Charos. And so

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Yep. I saw the picture of

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of seventy Charles on horseback,

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right?

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Yeah.

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Standing in front of City Hall or whatever.

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Yes. Yes. And their cultural

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And fantastic.

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influence helped the cowboy culture tremendously.

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So we don't want to turn tail we don't want to turn on on,

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you know, related events. But it the the the harpoon goes in both directions,

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right? The dagger comes in both directions.

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But they they have so helped save the day.

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So we don't want to just turn on each other,

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we want to help each other. Again,

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we're back to, you know, rising

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All rising that tide for for all ships.

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Yeah. And you know, the thing about it is you have,

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and it's not wise, you have animal athletes performing and you have human athletes

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performing, just like all athletes perform.

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And injuries can happen. That's just the reality of performing athletes.

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Now the argument is, I'm telling you,

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This one.

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I

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I've had PETA people come with me to behind the shoots and watch these bucking

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horses and bulls.

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And you watch this this the the the natural instinct of the cattle and everything,

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you know, they it you know, it it all goes back to the premise of,

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you know, forcing something for entertainment.

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What's happening?

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And you know, I I just don't ~ I don't add I don't think that that's the case.

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Okay, that's that's the

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These animals,

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you know, especially the rough stock,

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~ this the public.

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~ the the the sporn debuck is real.

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They

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love what they do.

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And you know, to sit there and say that that's not possible for an animal to

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be injured while it's while it is competing and they're competing.

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They're competing against the human and they want to win.

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And ~ we we have to take precautions.

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And I know that as a whole, the rodeo industry takes I mean you look

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at like Brittany not running, right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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You just c you can give example of example of example of example.

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Yeah, it's

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a call in

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Of

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of our industry cherishing our animals and taking care of them.

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And but the perception, you know,

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you said it, we said it both, perception's reality.

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It matters how someone perceives it.

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Whether it's true or not, right?

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Even in your home and your family,

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how you talk to somebody, it matters how that person you're talking

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to is perceiving it. You know,

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Yes. Well and and

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it whether you meant it or not.

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I if people know the truth ~ one of my favorite examples of of the way

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we feel about our animals with with ~ a gold buckle on the line,

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Haley Kinzel leaves sister in her stall last year before for the tenth round because

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she was just not quite herself that morning.

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I mean, come on now. Nobody loves it more than we do,

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so

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That's great.

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go catch your plane.

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Okay. Well, everybody, thank you for being a part.

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~ boy, it was fun to be back. It was fun for us to just have a conversation.

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Thank all of you. We'll be back.

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We're coming at you every two weeks.

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So get ready. We're coming at you every two weeks.

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And ~ you're gonna hear you're gonna hear us whether you like it or not.

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So ~ to all of you, God bless you.

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Thank you for joining us. Thank you,

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Miss Santos. Again, you're a

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You're a star. This has been No Spin Rodeo,

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episode 108. We'll see you next time.

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About the Podcast

No Spin Rodeo
NO BS Rodeo Conversations
Join Kendra Santos and Tommy Joe Lucia as they discuss important topics in the rodeo world without any politics or BS.